Jesse: It's a cracker of a
day, as they say in Australia.

It's not too cold, not too
warm, and the sun is shining in

Flemington, Melbourne, Victoria.

It's November 5th, Melbourne Cup Day,
and it's a perfect day for a race.

I want to paint a picture for you, not of
the race itself, but of those lining up

to participate in the day's festivities.

at the crack of dawn, tens of thousands
of pilgrims enter the grounds, young and

old, and from all different walks of life.

As per the Cup's strict dress guidelines,
the ladies are wearing dresses, bright and

colourful, reds, yellows, pinks and blues.

With large brimmed hats, fascinators,
and, of course, high heels.

The men are dressed in blue
suits with white shirts.

And brown R.

M.

Williams boots, The uniform for
corporate office workers and

real estate agents nationwide.

But as much as the Melbourne Cup
is known for the racing and its

fashion, It's really about two things.

Boozing and betting.

We'll talk a little bit more about
betting later in the episode.

But, as for the boozing, well,
I'm afraid to say it's not pretty.

And that's all because of the aftermath.

if you've ever googled Melbourne
Cup aftermath, and if you haven't, I

invite you to, you will see a flood
of images depicting the unfortunate

after effects of this giant party.

You'll see people keeled over
their camping chairs, clutching

the last bottle of Jack Daniels.

You'll see young ladies tripping
over piles of rubbish or taking a

nap in a conveniently placed bush.

As a side note, as someone who
has never worn high heels, it

just seems like a bad idea to mix
that kind of shoe with alcohol.

But you'll also see young men
attempting ill advised backflips or

other displays of crude masculinity.

Or just plain assaulting other party
goers or members of the police.

And of course, scattered amidst all
of this revelry, are piles of the

aforementioned garbage, as well as a
sea of human beings passed out on the

ground from either heat exhaustion, too
much drink, or a combination of both.

The Melbourne Cup truly is
the glamour event of the year.

And if you hadn't picked it
up, I am being sarcastic.

At the time of recording, it will
just have wrapped up in 2024.

So, what better time to talk
about the Melbourne Cup?

Today we're going to cover the
cup focusing on two key issues.

Number one.

The treatment of the horses that
are racing, and number two, the

effects of the gambling culture
that drives the Melbourne Cup.

Like a surgeon, we're going to take
a scalpel to the cup and see if we

can't find out what's underneath it.

And the same time, we're going to
ask the question, Should we really be

celebrating the Melbourne Cup in 2024?

All that and more coming up right now.

This is Science Radio episode 216.

Should you say nup to the Melbourne Cup?

Elio: Uh, look, CPR was formed back
In 2008, and that was after a two year

investigation of the racing industry.

At the time, there wasn't much known
in the general public as to really

what goes on behind the scenes.

I mean, I guess when you think about it,

Jesse: That's the voice of Elio Celotto.

He's the campaign director for
the Coalition of the Protection

of Racehorses, or CPR for short.

CPR as an organisation is committed to
promoting a more responsible attitude

toward the treatment of racehorses
before, during and after their racing

lives , as well as to facilitate
the rehoming and the rescue of horses

that are in abusive situations.

I wanted to sit down with CPR because
out of all the advocacy organizations

in Australia, they're the most vocal
when it comes to talking about the

reality of the racing industry.

Elio: behind the scenes.

I mean,

I guess when you think about it,
you suspect that there's probably

a lot of bad things happening.

And as someone who was involved
in animal rights found myself one

night in a pen full of horses.

That were to be killed at a
knackery just outside of Melbourne.

And it shocked me because not
only were these horses extremely

friendly, but they were also extremely
well kept for the major part.

And there were some horses that
were very, in very bad shape.

And then the penny dropped that
perhaps the racing industry

is not what it purports to be.

And that's what prompted
the two year investigation.

And then in 2008, CPR was formed as a
not-for-profit organisation And since

then we've been there to be a voice
for the horses out there competing that

have no saying what happens to them
from the time they're born virtually.

the ones that make money
are looked after well.

And once they start losing money,
lose the ability to win money.

Most of them are disposed and we just
think it's absolutely unacceptable

to be treating animals in such a way
that, they're only used for the purpose

of making money and being discarded
despite the racing industry telling

us how much they love their horses.

Jesse: so the extent to which these horses
were being mistreated and discarded,

how much of a gap was there between
what the racing industry was saying and

the reality that you were discovering

Elio: there's a huge gap because
what the racing industry tells

you is that they're the best
looked after animals in the world.

And, I'd like a dollar for every time
I've heard that phrase being coined.

But the reality is that from the
time that they are born, they're,

for one purpose and that is to race
and to make money for their owners.

And so they're separated from their
mother the mare at about six months

of age and then starts this regime of
building up muscle for racing, which

they hope to start at around two years
of age or even a little bit earlier,

depending when the horse was born.

Because the horse is deemed an age
by its date on the 1st of August.

And so if a horse was born, say a
couple of months earlier than that, it's

still considered to be a year older.

So many horses are typically born
in the August, September, October

period after 1st of August.

But so many of these horses can
be only a year and nine months

and they're out there racing.

So they're raced way too young in
equestrian sports and allowed to compete

until they're at least five years of age.

And in racing, they're racing at
two years of age under a lot more

a lot more pressure than they
would be in an equestrian event.

And they're pushed obviously as, as
often as they, the trainers think

that the horse can sustain racing.

And most of these horses.

uh, retired, without having
run more than for three years.

So the average racing career
is less than three years.

And we think that's very telling
that a horse is retired even

before they reach maturity.

And typically a horse will live to
be 25, 30, even 35 years of age.

So when they're retired at about five
years of age and this is as a result of

injuries that's sustained, or as a result
of conditions that are very common in

racing, like bleeding in the lungs, and
that's caused by overexertion which 90

percent of them bleed from the lungs,
and 90 percent suffer from stomach

ulcers, and that's as a result of being
fed an unnatural high protein diet.

Feed, which is designed to put on
muscle mass, but not, it's not what

the horse would normally consume.

And so there's nothing right
about the racing industry.

Very few horses find permanent homes,
and most of them will be condemned

to slaughter and end up at a knackery
or slaughterhouse, killed for pet

food or even human consumption.

Jesse: Once a horse has gone through
this treatment, Let's say that they

don't end up at a slaughterhouse, we'll
definitely talk about that, but let's say

they don't end up at a slaughterhouse.

What kind of quality of life are
we talking about for a horse that

manages, luckily, to have a quote
unquote natural life after being

part of the racing industry?

Elio: Well This depends on how the
horse finishes up his racing career.

If he's Or she has sustained
mild injuries, then it's possible

that they just need rest and,
that could take six to 12 months.

Most racehorses are also psychologically
damaged as a result of the trauma.

They have to endure being
whipped, being tongue tied.

I'm not sure if that's a term that
many people understand, but they

actually tie the tongue to the bottom
jaw so that the horse can't lift.

It's tongue above the bit and therefore
avoid the pain that's caused by the bit.

So there's many aspects to
racing that are extremely cruel.

But let's suppose they do survive a
racing career of two to three years.

And aren't completely injured some
horses do find permanent homes and

that's many thanks to the many horse
sanctuaries around Australia doing

a great job in rehoming what is
really just a very small number, but

at least it's better than nothing.

And this is while the racing industry
calls itself the sport of kings, it turns

over around 30 million a year just in
Australia and bidding to over and And

yet it can't provide these horses with
a rehabilitation and retirement plan.

And that's why many people are
turning off racing because they

realise now that horse racing for the
horse is nothing but animal cruelty.

And anyone that supports horse
racing is supporting this.

And, we believe that most people think
that, animals should be given at least

the right to live out their natural lives.

And free from pain and suffering.

when this doesn't occur, I think
people tend to turn off whatever it

is, that activity that causes that.

And we've definitely seen a decline
in attendances at carnivals like

the Melbourne Spring Carnival.

And other major race
meets around Australia.

And we think that's a really good thing.

Sign that the message is getting through

Jesse: I'm not.

incredibly familiar with the broad
strokes of the racing industry.

So I'm sure it's more than just the
Melbourne Cup, but I would also imagine

that the Melbourne Cup is a fairly
significant driver of the industry.

So what role does the Melbourne
Cup play in all of this?

Elio: look traditionally the Melbourne
Cup and the spring carnival and even the

autumn carnival in Sydney Have been very
important to the racing industry because

they attract new people to horse racing
and the problem has been though that over

the last 10 20 years or so People have
become aware of the cruelty and they may

be going just to the one You Melbourne Cup
events, or it could be Derby Day, or it

could be the Oaks, and they're not coming
back, and the racing industry knows that

this is a huge problem because they're not
converting the people going to the races

during the spring carnival as permanent
followers of the sport, so they are seeing

a very, a much older demographic emerging
following races as younger people are

turning away from it, and that's largely
because it's, It's based on animal cruelty

and gambling and horse racing obviously
also plays a significant role in the lives

of people who um, become gambling addicts
and so it doesn't only ruin the lives of

innocent animals, it's ruining the lives
of many Australians at the same time.

Jesse: Yeah, I know that you guys are
mostly focused on the animal cruelty

aspect, but I just wonder if you wanted
to comment on some of those other aspects,

the excessive consumption of alcohol.

the appearance of the bell cup.

It's a very glamorous and in many ways
excessive event which I think has probably

left a bit of a uh, sour taste in the
general Australian population given

the cost of living crisis we've been
going through for a couple of years.

I don't know if you wanted
to comment on any of that.

Elio: well Look, it's certainly portrayed
as being glamorous, but I think a lot of

the shine has been taken away by that.

Seven or eight horses have died in the
Melbourne Cup in the last 12 years.

But that's only highlighting that, each
and every week around three horses are

killed on our racetracks from similar
injuries to the ones that, The horses have

died in the Melbourne Cup and that's each
and every week, so that's more than 150

horses every year recorded as being killed
on our racetracks, and we, we think that

that's just completely unacceptable, and
they're the ones, they're just the ones

we know of we know that there are many
thousands more disappear from racing,

they don't keep any statistics of horses
that are retiring from racing and we can

only presume that the reason for that is
they don't want to know themselves, and

they certainly don't want us to know.

In terms of the event itself and how
it's portrayed as being glamorous and

yet it's just become one big bogan fest
uh, where people go there to get dressed

up and, and drink and excessively it,
it's become a sad and sorry sight every

year there's um, really is one of The
very low days for um, our culture when

we go to a horse race and get excessively
drunk and gamble our money away, leave a

trail of rubbish behind there's nothing
really positive that comes out of it.

Another important factor is that Melbourne
Cup, because it is a day where people

gamble and drink, it's also a day where we
see the most domestic violence recorded.

It's the, one of the worst days
of the year for domestic violence.

I think that kind of says it all.

We don't think that there's anything
positive about the racing industry.

You could argue that it provides
over 100, 000 jobs Australia wide.

I don't think that's a reason to
allow a sport or an industry to

exist, just because it provides jobs
when it's causing so much misery to

its clientele and to its athletes.

Jesse: We're going to return to
Elio a little later in the episode.

But for now, we're going to travel
all the way from Victoria up to

the city of Logan in Queensland.

Specifically, we're going
to talk to Sam Luteru.

Sam runs an ADRA based
community centre in Logan City.

Remember, ADRA stands for the Adventist
Development and Relief Agency.

AdraLogan works in the areas
of homelessness, addiction,

and other issues But I'm gonna
let Sam introduce Logan City.

Sam: I'm based in Logan Central which
used to be called Woodridge if I just

walk down the road, that's Woodridge.

They kind of rebranded Logan Central
to move away from the connotations that

the name Woodridge was attached to.

But it's still Woodridge, so you
know, it's They just try to give it

a bit of an upscale name, I suppose.

and it is, it is a low, the
lowest socioeconomic area.

We have a SEPA index, socioeconomic
index for Australia of two percentile.

So, 98 percent of other
communities are better off than

this community in Australia.

which means we're dealing with people who
are in poverty, homelessness, Families

that are struggling to make ends meet.

And our role here as Adra and
Logan is really supporting our

community, helping our community.

So we're an emergency relief center.

So we do emergency relief, food, clothing,
furniture and we do counseling but we

also have development with training.

So we do accredited training
through the government here

in Queensland who funded it.

And we're able to help people get
nationally recognized qualifications

that help them get jobs.

We, focus on two areas, hospitality
and conservation, which is outdoor.

And our trainees they come for
20 weeks and then we help them

try and find jobs as well.

Helping our community live
better lives through providing

food through providing training.

That's what we do, but
we're dealing with all.

So we don't discriminate.

Of course, if you're in need
and you come by and you need

help that's what we're here for.

So our team, it's a very small team
of paid staff, but we have a, team of

up to 30 volunteers on site every day.

We operate op shop, which is
Operating in two areas, so we have

two distinct op shops, one furniture
shop, one clothing and bric a brac.

we're a little bit different than a lot
of other ADRA entities across the country.

There are not.

Too many ADRA community
centers nationwide.

There are probably four
distinct community centers.

And then ADRA Logan is a community
center that has op shops attached

to it so we're dealing with people
every day who are in desperate need.

Yeah.

Domestic violence victims addicts
all sorts of variety of people.

Yeah.

Jesse: Sam, could you flesh that
out a little bit more for us?

If the average listener isn't
familiar with Logan what would

you, if you, somebody was to
describe to you, what is Logan?

What would you tell them?

What's the cross section of the
community that you call Logan?

How would you describe that?

Sam: The cross section of the community.

Ethnic, ethnically.

There are

234 ethnicities in Logan City itself.

So the whole world is here.

The whole world is in,
is represented in Logan.

We've got indigenous Australians, new
migrants from all over the world landed

here as refugees or they are here as
new migrants who migrated to Australia

from the New Zealand, from all parts
of the world, and we're dealing, on our

books, with probably, we've probably
over 40, 000 people registered that

we're dealing with within a year,

Jarrod: As we lead into November, the
month of November, the nation stops for.

The Melbourne Cup, everyone gets
excited, has office parties, it

becomes a, it's almost like a cultural
thing that Australia does every year.

you know, November issue, we've
written about the Melbourne Cup and

some of the that come out of the
cup that we don't always profile

that we're not always aware of.

And one of those is
gambling, problem gambling.

Can you just give us a perception?

Are you seeing the impact
of gambling in your center?

Sam: I'd say we are And you know when
you mention the word gambling faces

come to mind, they're real people
they're not strangers I think of

Individuals as well that are impacted
by gambling on a regular basis.

So yeah we don't stop for
the Melbourne cup ourselves.

It's not something that we support, but
we have a diverse group of volunteers,

many of whom non Christians who will
have a flood of themselves and express

their interest in the Melbourne cup
and other types of gambling as well,

we have a regular volunteer who He'll
give you tips on horses every week.

And yeah, that's been
a big part of his life

Jesse: The Melbourne Cup comes around
once a year, but we know that gambling

doesn't stop after the Melbourne
Cup's over, it keeps going and it

expresses itself in many different
forms and in many different sports.

So, In your context, what are the
most common ways that people gamble.

Is it pokies?

Is it the clubs?

Is it scratchies or local news agent?

Is it sports betting apps?

Sam: My experience is that the whole
gamut, if people are gambling they

are gambling across the spectrum.

Although probably pokies
is, a huge impact.

In our community I gave, I probably
talked to Jared about these stats a while

ago, a few years ago, actually and back
then it was like 14 million a month from

this community going into the pokies.

But the latest stats are from June, 2023.

And 18 million in the month of
June 2023 went into pokies alone

in this city, in Logan City,

Jesse: Wow.

Sam: This suburb.

And that's huge.

There is money here and we are
getting people who are in need of

food and clothing and furniture.

But it's where the money's going that
is probably the biggest challenge.

Jesse: And I just I just looked up Sam
just quickly now, according to Wikipedia,

according to 2021, there are 345, 000
people living in the Logan city area.

So if we're talking 18
million in one month from.

345, 000 people.

That's an insane ratio.

That's insane.

Sam: pokey stats.

That's not a sports gambling
scratchies every other form of

gambling that's available to people.

And it's becoming more and more easy.

People have a device.

They're able to gamble, and, that's
a sad part that the money's not

going where it should be going.

And part of that is, you know,
I know individuals, they are

looking for that big windfall, I
have a particular person of mine.

They often live homeless on the street
and periodically they have wads of money.

And basically it's going into pokies
and then they might get a big win and,

flash it around the neighborhood and,
and she's told me it's, she'll go to

the pokies and she'll win big and then
she'll sit on the floor outside, sit on

the road outside asking people for money
when there's no money left, and trying

to get food to eat and sleeping rough.

Yeah, it's sad.

It's sad, it's a cycle and, there's
always that hunger to, oh, I

might hit it big, but, it's just a
disease, a gambling disease, yeah.

Sad.

Jarrod: I just want to draw a connection
between the 18 million a month and

the, the 98th percentile or the
second percentile of that community.

So you're saying, what you're saying is
this is socio economically, one of the

lowest Earning lowest in Australia and
yet 18 million a month is coming from

this area to that, that one gambling.

As you said, there's other sources
of gambling, but that's just

Sam: Eighteen million's
coming from the city of Logan.

Woodridge and Logan Central
are suburbs of that city.

The whole eighteen million
wouldn't be coming from the suburb.

But those two suburbs are the
lowest socioeconomic suburbs.

And many people in these
suburbs are gambling.

We have a club just down the road,
which is very popular, this area, in

this catchment, there's a number of
pubs and clubs that, will run till 4am.

Their gaming rooms will be running,
pretty much most of the day.

Jarrod: What do you think is some
of the social fallout from that?

People using that money to gamble.

You said this lady is spending it up
and then essentially begging outside the

doors, what's some of the social fallout
of people having money, but putting it

into something like gambling in the hope
of winning big, rather than, I don't

know, are they not feeding their families?

Are they not?

Stable with homes.

Sam: part of it, too, impacts our
community here the abuse of drugs

and alcohol and often it leads to
violence and domestic violence and,

there's flow on effects as well.

So, everything's interconnected,
I was here Saturday morning.

We do a street church in the car park.

And there was a few people going off at
each other around some drug thing or some.

And they, looking to punch on.

And then I spoke to them afterwards
and I said, what was all that about?

they kind of were cagey, but they did
tell me a little bit about it and I just

said to them, why are you mob arguing
for, you're from the same mob and I said,

shouldn't be arguing with each other.

There's so many other things
in life that impact us.

He should be trying to get on.

So has.

The impact of, people struggle,
and they're struggling to,

because they're not putting money
into buying groceries for kids.

We have a school lunch school
breakfast program on a Tuesday morning.

We do breakfast for kids
going to school as well.

And, kids aren't getting breakfast
in the morning, parents or

families aren't, buying groceries.

They can't afford it if they've
wasted all their money on gambling.

Yeah.

And it's, like I said, it's
become easier and easier.

Society's made it so much more
easier to gamble, you don't even

have to go to a venue to gamble.

You can just.

Tap on your phone and get
charged and then charged on your

phone, charged to your card.

It's just so convenient nowadays.

Jesse: In terms of the life cycle
of the gambler what have you seen

in terms of people who have Been
addicted and then gotten clean.

Do they relapse like an alcoholic?

Is there support for problem gambling that
either you offer or that you can refer to?

What does it look like for
somebody who's in that cycle of

addiction but wants to get clean?

Sam: There's always help for people,
they've always, even with advertising,

they, when they advertise gambling,
they say, Oh, we'll gamble responsibly,

and that's self control that,
that comes down to, who you are.

We do have a counselor a free
counseling service provided here

as well with people can access.

And that's not just for gambling.

That's for all manner of counseling.

But She'll specialize with some of
those people on, helping them through

what it is to try and break that cycle.

It is a disease, it's something
that they can relapse from just

alcohol abuse or, drug abuse as well.

It just becomes that thing that.

That will drive them and
consume them every day.

So there is a lot of assistance.

I went to a community meeting.

We have an interagency meeting
here in Logan, all the agencies

and services we meet regularly.

And one of the presenters at one of our
meetings was from Gambling Australia.

And he said, the stats that
he showed us were amazing.

Australia is the number
one country in the world.

Leads the world in gambling.

Australians will gamble on anything
and everything, and, this is what

one of my volunteers told me.

He said, when I was sharing
that with him, he said, that's

because we'll gamble on anything.

We'll put a, anything.

Put a bet on, on anything,
whatever it might be.

So yeah it's a huge issue, if you're
going to be number one at something,

I don't know if that's what you want
to be number one at as a country, but

yeah, so Australia is the number one
country for gambling in the world.

When you consider the size of Australia
and the size of other countries per

capita we're outstripping everyone.

That's crazy.

And then when I localize
that to our local area.

I see the impact of that in every day when
you've got people who are struggling to

make ends meet for whatever reason, and
some of it, not all of it would be about

gambling, but some of it is impacted by
people trying to get that win, trying

to make that money, and it becomes a
disease, you're trying to bet on your

sports team and the sports betting to come
even bigger, Become more easier to do.

Yeah,

Jarrod: take us into the psyche
or the reasons that you've seen or

talk to people about why do people
fall into this cycle of disease?

What do you think their mentality is?

What are they hoping to get out of it?

Sam: I think sometimes it's a feel
good factor, you know I don't know

if you've ever been to a poky room.

They're bright and light and good music
and there's Complimentary Snacks and

things they just make it easy for you
to enjoy that environment And you know a

lot of people don't feel good about life
So if you can help people to feel good

it goes a long way, if you're welcoming
and a lot of people that I know will,

they don't even know what the time of
day is when they're in the casino or in

a gambling room in a pokey room, there's,
they're oblivious to everything else,

but they want to feel good, and sometimes
getting a win makes them feel good.

And sometimes it's that, that next fix.

It's that next, oh, I might
have lost them, but the next

one's gonna be a winner, the
next turn is gonna be a winner.

And for some people that I know that they
don't feel good about life in general

there's not much to feel good about.

So anything that makes them feel
good, is a plus, is a bonus.

Yeah.

And sometimes it's artificial,
they don't connect.

The reality of what they're doing with
life, it's like an escape for many people.

It's an escape from life

Jesse: I wanted to drill down a
little further on gambling and

so I asked both Sam and Elio,

What would you say to somebody
who's a casual gambler?

Somebody who doesn't have an
issue with gambling like I do.

somebody who might listen to
a conversation like this and

assume that all of us are just a
bunch of puritanical fun police.

It

was interesting what they had to say.

Sam: I don't know but I think
to myself why would you do that?

Everyone does something for a reason.

I think if you In my experience if you
live with purpose in life, it drives

you sometimes when you don't have that,
it's like that, if you don't know what

you stand for, you'll fall for anything.

Even a casual flutter can be dangerous,
they talk about the slippery slope, what

turns somebody from a casual drinker to
a, someone who's abusing alcohol, they,

just engaging in, in bad behavior can turn
pretty sour, and it has for many people,

people don't realize how far they've
gone I would caution people There's

so many good things that you can do.

And, if you're looking for stimulation
or rather than bet on sport, you can

play sport, you can get out and, do,
rather than have to gamble on it.

And, find your tribe that helps you
get through, and I think that part

of our experience here is that people
will come here and volunteer and

we've had people who been broken.

For different reasons, and they'll
come here and they find a bit of

purpose, and helping other people is
a really great purpose people tell me

here, often, I'm never gonna leave,
I came here, and this was happening

in my life, was a victim of domestic
violence, or I was stuck in a rut, I was

an addict, and, this has allowed me to
then think of others more than myself.

And be able to contribute to
something positive in our community

and giving positively to community.

Yeah, there are a lot
of pitfalls and traps.

And I think sometimes you can get
trapped very subtly into doing things.

And it's not until you stop and take
stock and I've gone a bit far now

and sometimes it's too late to turn
back, and for a number of people

I meet in the work that we do,

Elio: Yeah, look, um, I mean the gambling
issue, I, look, that's another thing

that I'm passionate about as well.

I think just deplorable that state
government makes so much money from

gambling and that's part of the reason
why I support it by the governments

because they make so much money from it.

And that's at the expense of often
the people that can least afford it.

Pretty much every person that I
know that gambles Cannot afford.

We should not be wasting
their money on it.

And unfortunately, it's affecting
the most vulnerable members of our

community that succumb to gambling.

And it's I don't think there's any
way of stamping it out, but certainly

they should make it as difficult as
possible to for it to proliferate.

And I guess there's some good
politicians out there trying to reduce

the numbers of poker machines and other
forms of gambling Wilkie and Tassie

and Abigail Abigail from the Greens.

They're doing great work.

I'm hopeful that we're going to turn this
ship around and make Australia a much more

compassionate and animal friendly society.

Sam: a lot of people just,

you know, Mayor Angelo said, people
will forget what you said, people will

forget what you did, but people will
never forget how you made them feel.

And it's that feeling often that helps
people change their outlook, how do I

make people feel when they engage with
me in our community and here at ADRA?

How do we make them feel?

And that can make a huge difference
in people's lives, and that can

make people think about, am I
doing what is good for me, or is

it harmful for me in the long run?

And gambling is the same.

You might think it's okay, you
might even be a high earner,

but you could be contributing
more of your income to gambling.

And, that's not a good thing in anyone's
book, people who are low socioeconomic,

they're struggling already, and
they're often looking for that quick

fix to, Okay, I'm going to make more
money, I'm going to make more money.

When they add up the cost of that, they
put in more money than they realize,

and they're not getting a return on it.

It's not designed that way,
the machines have all these

algorithms, and it's scientific.

It's not.

It's, yes.

It's a no brainer to me, people
don't see it the same way.

And we're here to help people
get from that struggle to

help them walk a better path.

And, when you know
better, you'll do better.

And that's one of our sayings here is if
we know better, we have to do better and

when people know better, they do better.

So hopefully that's something that.

People are catching on to,
but it's a huge problem.

Yeah, it's a huge problem.

Jesse: We're going to finish our
conversation by going back to

my Disco We're going to finish
this episode by going back to my

interview With Elio from the CPA.

This conversation has
been one of two halves.

On the one hand, the horse racing
industry and the treatment of its animals.

And on the other hand, the gambling
issue that's wrapped up in it.

if you've paid attention to the news in
the last couple of years, no doubt you

remember an investigation the ABC did here
in Australia in 2019, where they uncovered

the fact that the racing industry
mistreats its animals to a degree far

more severe than was previously thought.

Elio's already gone over
some of those facts.

But it's been five years since
that investigation, so I asked

Elio, has anything changed?

Elio: I can't see anything has changed
since 2019, other than maybe the racing

industry has upped its its effort in
trying to improve its image through

PR, for example they don't have the
Melbourne Cup Parade anymore because

people just simply weren't going.

In fact, their numbers were increasing.

uh, we've been demonstrating
at the Melbourne Cup Parade

for the last 12 or 13 years.

And we can see the numbers
dwindling down to, it was 400 or

500 the last time they had it.

So they're seeing these
numbers going down.

They need to try to
improve their their image.

And this year on Melbourne Cup Eve,
They're having an event at the Living

Legends, which is a place where
approximately 20 extremely successful

racehorses are being kept, and they're
doing this to highlight how well ex

racehorses are looked after, but they
fail to consider the many thousands

that are retired from racing every year.

They think by highlighting how well
a few are kept that people will

extrapolate that's how they're all
kept, and it's simply not true.

We know there are many.

NACRI is still operating
killing horses, and even a few

illegal ones have popped up.

Nobody wants an ex race horse.

They're very difficult to rehome
because they are psychologically

damaged and often physically ill.

Damage and the cost to look after
a racehorse that's had an injury.

It could be 10, 20, 30, 000 and
that's why they get rid of them.

That's what they'd rather kill them.

Then have to look after them.

So it's the racing industry in the
time since 2019 they talk a lot about

Rehoming initiatives, but they collect 2
percent of prize money in Sydney that's

supposed to go to animal welfare but no
one knows how that money is being used.

The similar situation in Melbourne
where they're collecting 1 percent

of prize money and that's supposed
to go to the rehoming of racehorses.

And it's simply not happening, and
they fail to disclose any details

about how this money is being used.

It's a very secretive industry.

makes very little public unless
it's absolutely good news.

It's because they've
got a lot to answer for.

If the truth was known I'm 100
percent sure that the majority

of people, certainly anyone that
considered themselves an animal

lover, would not support this sport.

Jesse: to be honest, I was hoping that
you'd say, oh, yeah, they've done this

or that, the other thing, and it's
not enough, but to hear that they've

basically done nothing except in areas
that are related to PR, as you say,

that's, yeah, that's pretty damning.

Talk to us a little bit about CPR
and nupt the cup, because I think a

lot of people, if they're listening.

to this will be like, Oh my
goodness, what the heck do I do?

what can the average person do?

Elio: Look, there's a lot that
each and every person can do.

Just don't celebrate the Melbourne Cup.

Celebrate Nup to the Cup.

And we're seeing events popping
up all around Australia.

We have approximately
40 events registered.

On our database of events that are being
held, but we know that there's many

hundreds more people just deciding to
sign up to the cup and perhaps getting

together with a few friends and they all
chip in 10, 20, 30 and put that money

to it, to one of the animal charities.

So we think it's We're very optimistic
that the first Tuesday in November can be

turned on its head, and it can be a day
where some people may choose to celebrate

the Melbourne Cup, but true animal lovers
can celebrate that particular day by

saying nup to the cup, and raising money
for any animal charity that they choose,

and make it a day where we remember
animals instead of exploiting them.

we think it's a day that we can
have a, have as good a day as anyone

at the races, in fact, better.

And at the end of the day we don't
have to feel guilty about animals

being exploited for our entertainment.

Jesse: Clearly, this is a topic that
we will need to revisit in the future.

No matter how you feel about the Melbourne
Cup, we all owe it to ourselves and to

the animals involved to know the truth.

and personally I'm thankful for
organisations like ADRA and the CPA

who are continuing to shed the truth
on the realities of both gambling

and the horse racing industry.

If you enjoyed this episode, you
can read the article I wrote on it.

Science mag.com.

That's science mag.com.

if you'd like to get in touch with
the CPAN to the Cup or with Ara, all

those links will be in the show notes.

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magazine Thanks again for listening.

My name is Jesse, and I'll
see you in the next episode.